An idol called the ‘church’ Part 1

“The church is the most powerful thing on Earth”
“What church do you go to?”
“We went to church on Sunday”
“Welcome to the house of God today”
“Bring them to church and they will get saved”
“Church leaders are the most important thing in building the church”
“We need to be relevant to our culture to effectively build the church”
“I am passionate about the church”
“Bring your offering so we can build the house of God”These are just a few of the statements that we hear over and over again but have you ever wondered if they are correct, are they scriptural?

About three years ago the Lord started bringing my attention to various things I have learned over the nearly 30 years of ministry. It all started when He spoke to me with such a force it was almost audible in a conference I was attending on church leadership. He said very clearly “beware of socio humanistic philosophy” – I said “what on earth is that”, I didn’t have a clue what that meant. He then continued showing me over the next half an hour all what was going on in the ‘church’ and then confirmed it by giving me a living example that I clearly recognized. I went home from the conference and did a Google search on the term ‘socio humanistic philosophy’ and added the word ‘Christian’ to it. I was amazed at what I read and began to understand what the Lord had shown me. Basically that the church was rampant with this philosophy. (I will go into this later in this publication) Over the last three years he has expounded on that revelation and this study is the result of everything the Lord has shown Jeannette and myself.

Just to back up a little. The Lord spoke very clearly to me 4 years ago to go to and live in a small town in New Zealand called Ashburton from our Home in Brisbane, Australia. For three and a half years we questioned the Lord as to why He took us there because as far as our ministry is concerned it died. We had been ministering there for many, many years prior to moving there. What was once a place where we had seen God do incredible miracles and His presence manifest in amazing ways turned into a place of dry bones for us.

We now understand that the Lord took us physically out of the ‘system’ of the ‘church’ we were so actively involved in by taking us to that small country town and has been getting the ‘system’ out of us ever since.
I started seeing things differently and for some reason I started cringing at the statements like the above when I said them or when I heard someone else say them. It got worse the more I heard and it seemed like my spirit was tuned into picking up those sort of things. It got extremely bad when I heard a whole sermon by one of Australia’s most well known preachers. He spoke about how great the church is, how powerful it is and how much of a privilege it is to serve in the house. My spirit squirmed and then I started thinking “hold on – he hasn’t even mentioned the Lord, God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit once through the whole sermon and I started thinking things like ‘the church isn’t the most powerful thing on Earth – the Holy Spirit is’ and questioning whether the church is in actual fact the House of God. Even is the church really the church Jesus talked about and is building on Earth today.

I recalled hearing the head of a Pentecostal movement in New Zealand state that it wasn’t the Holy Ghost that built churches it was good leadership. That was his opening statement as he opened a new church building in a particular town. I felt like screaming out “what did you just say” – I couldn’t believe what I just heard. Yet there were hundreds of people there just swallowing it all up. I went home thinking ‘what is wrong – what is going on’.

Another pastor I heard preach recently said this as his opening statement. He said “I love the church, I am so passionate about the church, the church is the most powerful, influential force on Earth. I am so excited about the church again”. My spirit immediately squirmed and I thought  ‘I know exactly where you have been’ – I discovered that this was his first message after returning from a conference hosted by the first preacher I mentioned here.
I thought ‘why aren’t you passionate, excited and in love with Jesus’. Why have you been stirred up with a passion for the church – is this scriptural? Shouldn’t you be stirred in your relationship with Jesus?

Again another example – I was watching Australian Idol where they interviewed one of the contestants and during the whole segment he talked about how the church saved him from his old life – how good his life has been since he went to church. He went on about the church this and the church that and I thought what about Jesus! – he never mentioned Him, God, the Lord, the Holy Spirit once, just how great the church was.

Now you may be thinking (as I have questioned myself) that I’m just getting critical. But you see this guy may not have really understood what he was saying – he was probably taught this by the idol that has crept into the church called ‘the church’.

Yet another example of a pastor preaching a message on evangelism. Except he wasn’t telling the people to go out on the streets and bring people to Jesus he said go out onto the streets and bring them to church so that they can get saved. The whole message was along those lines. Can you see the subtlety?
Now I think that if I talked with any of these people I have used as an example they would most likely say something like “oh yes, of course I mean Jesus. Isn’t the church the body of Christ anyway?” or “aren’t you playing semantics – the church and Jesus are the same, He is the head, we are the body”

But what this really proves is that there is overall a fundamental misunderstanding of what the church is. There is a huge error in our theology. There are whole movements preaching error that sounds like its scriptural but are in fact preaching about an idol called the church.

An idol called the ‘church’

What do I mean by  ‘an idol’?

The definition of an idol:-

"Dear children, keep yourselves from idols." 1 John 5:21

Idolatry is a sin very deeply rooted in the human heart. We need not go very far to find of this the most convincing proofs. Besides the experience of every age and every climate, we find it where we would least expect it—the prevailing sin of a people who had the greatest possible proofs of its wickedness and folly, and the strongest evidences of the being, greatness, and power of God.

It amazes us sometimes in reading the history of God's ancient people, as recorded in the inspired page, that, after such wondrous and repeated displays of his presence, glory, and majesty, they should again and again bow down before stocks and stones. That those who had witnessed all the plagues of Egypt had passed through the Red Sea by an explicit miracle, were daily living on manna that fell from heaven and water that gushed out of the rock, who had but to look upward by day to behold the pillar of the cloud, and by night the pillar of fire to manifest the presence of Jehovah in their midst—that this people, because Moses delayed coming down from the Mount, should fall down before a golden calf, and say, "These are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up out of the land of Egypt," does indeed strike our minds with astonishment.

And that this sin should break forth in them again and again through their whole history down to the period of the Babylonish captivity, in spite of all the warnings of their prophets, all the terrible judgments of God, all their repeated captivities, and, what would be far more likely to cure it, all their repeated deliverances, does indeed show, if other proof were lacking, that it is a disease deeply rooted in the very constitution of fallen man.

If this be the case, unless human nature has undergone a change, of which neither scripture nor experience affords any evidence, the disease must be in the heart of man now as much as ever; and if it exists it must manifest itself, for a constitutional malady can no more be in the soul and not show itself, than there can be a sickness in the body without evident symptoms of illness.

It is true that the disease does not break out exactly in the same form. It is true that golden calves are not now worshiped, at least the calf is not, if the gold be, nor do Protestants adore images of wood, brass, or stone. But that rank; property, fashion, honor, the opinion of the world, with everything which feeds the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, are as much idolized now as Baal and Moloch were once in Judea, and Juggernaut now is in the plains of Hindostan, is true beyond all contradiction.

But what is idolatry? To answer this question, let us ask another.
What is an idol? Is not this the essence of the idea conveyed by the word, that an idol occupies that place in our esteem and affections, in our thoughts, words and ways, in our dependence and reliance, in our worship and devotedness, which is due to God only? Whatever is to us what the Lord alone should be, that is to us an idol.

[J. C. Philpot, October, 1855]

Read full transcript here http://www.gracegems.org/Philpot/Idolatry.htm

Basically an idol is anything that takes the place of God.

“an idol occupies that place in our esteem and affections, in our thoughts, words and ways, in our dependence and reliance, in our worship and devotedness, which is due to God only”

Now with that in mind re-read the statements above and you will see my concern.

I have been putting off this publication as it will most likely offend some, anger some and most likely cut off the last dangling piece of ‘our’ ministry skin pumping life into what is left of ‘our’ ministry but will also most likely resurrect the ‘Lords’ ministry through us.

Now my statement that encapsulates what I have been saying over the last 10 – 12 years and the revelation I have had over the last 3 -4 years that there is a problem with the church.

I now realize that the church (in the west) has become an idol and has in many ways taken the place of God and that we have been preaching about the idol called the church believing we really mean Jesus.

This is actually deception that can only be broken by revelation.

The next few chapters will reveal scripturally / theologically

  • What the Church is not
  • What the Church is
  • Church Belief systems
  • How to deal with the idol
  • How will we do church now
  • Changing mindsets
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Comments  

 
+1 # Alistair 2009-10-29 21:12
Interesting article on the church - I even heard a guy call the church his bride once! I'm not sure where the fits on the idolatory scale!
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0 # Ian 2009-10-29 21:29
Yep stay tuned – the Church is His bride. The idol called the church isn’t
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0 # Graham 2009-10-29 21:31
How can you say that the church is an idol when it is in fact the people of God, his sons and daughters. Jesus gave his life for people like you and me. Idols are only what individuals make for themselves. Self indulgent intellect is more an idol, the I’ve got it right and all you others are wrong. I’ve seen many christian people go off the rails when they become critical of the church (people) and cut themselves off from fellowship with other believers and are not accountable for their conduct to anyone except God. How self deluded can one get, it’s all about me attitude.
Could you take me off the mailing list please. I love the people of God even though they may not be perfect.
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+1 # Ian 2009-10-29 21:34
I agree totally in what you say Graham – the Church is the people of God, the ecclesia. I too love the people of God – the Church. What I don’t like is the idol called the church. What we have in most of the western churches today is not about the people being the church but about the building, organization etc. etc.

Someone once said “stop just going to church - and be the church”

There is a whole city in the USA recently just done that – all the ‘churches’ in the city closed their doors for a Sunday and told the people to go out and be the Church.

I am sorry you think I am deluded and off the rails. Do you think those churches in the USA are also deluded or do you think maybe God is saying something to ‘His Church’.

I also have to question whether you read the whole article because as I mentioned that further studies will come

• What the Church is not
• What the Church is
• Church Belief systems
• How to deal with the idol
• How will we do church now
• Changing mindsets

So I am sorry you will not stick around to read the full picture of what I am saying.
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0 # Antonio 2009-11-01 18:31
I wish to say that Graham was too impetuous in his response withut fully understandin the them and substanc of the article which addresses the phenomenon of some church becomng self-focusd and not Christ focused. That has nothing to do with perfection.
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-1 # Pastor Paul 2009-10-29 21:38
Good stuff Ian, That will rark a few religious devils up

keep preaching it
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0 # Pastor Brett 2009-10-29 21:39
I have read what you said.
I agree.
Let's get back to loving Jesus.
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0 # Pastor Mark 2009-10-29 21:40
For a few years I have been wrestling with the question 'What Is Church'?
Thank you for "An Idol called the Church". It has helped gell some thinking for me, I look forward to reading the next few parts.
Currently I am reading a book called "Will the Real Church Stand Up" written by Michael Fewson of Living Way Christian Church in Pearth - this echos some of what you are seeing/hearing and saying.

May God continue to bless you bothin your work for Him.
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+1 # Lindsay 2009-10-29 21:41
Thank you for your article. You are stating a truth that needs to be heard and then prayerfully digested. Throughout human history we believers have tended to go ‘gung-ho’ after trends or waves (albeit Holy Spirit-inspired trends/waves). Just in the last century, in the 1950’s it was the healing revivals, which was replaced by a revival of Biblical teaching, which was replaced by the Charismatic Renewal revival, which has been replaced by the Worship / Tabernacle of David revival, lately Miracles revival (Are we about to witness a revival of the liturgical/mystical as part of the current Prayer Movement revival?). All very special and precious in themselves but which can often, if overemphasized, be taken to extremes or ‘idol’ status, as you suggest in your article.

As a cross-cultural missionary of 26 years I’ve enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) all these waves (many, if not all- of them, ‘pendulum balances’ in order to correct extremes) but find, in the midst of it all, I have to continually fight to bring myself (and those placed under my care) back to the ABC’s of being a disciple of Jesus: do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God. The European leaders of the mission that I belong to are meeting next week in order to look at some of these issues including considering the possibility that once-cherished terms like “Christian”, “missions”, “missionary” and “church planting” have become stumbling blocks for today’s cross-cultural disciple-makers.

Again, thank you for taking the time to write the “An idol called the church” article. I look forward to reading the subsequent parts.
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0 # Christine 2009-10-30 02:28
A most enlightening lesson-it makes so much sense,and I totally agree.
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0 # Glenda 2009-10-30 03:12
Hmmmm.. Interesting reading Ian,

I know what this means for me but what does it mean for a ministry like yours that is so reliant on "the church" inviting you in to preach????

I am sure God is trying to re shape His people.
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+1 # Pastor Kola 2009-10-30 03:13
This article is very timely and true. We all need to have a change of mind so we can do the Kingdom work with greater speed.
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0 # Jacqui 2009-10-30 03:16
You're just saying what most 'uneasy' believers have been sensing. We were called out of all that we knew in Australia and planted in the UK 2 years ago. Wow, what an eye opener to be out of the Australian church climate.

Thank you so much for sharing, this really resonated with me, I've already shared it with a few of my fellow travellers and they too were touched and inspired to deeper thought on it. God bless you and your family, and, whatever ministry Jesus puts in your hands.
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+1 # Yanti 2009-10-30 08:46
Hi, Pastor Ian... thank you for the insight. We must rethink about the church so that the church (that's us) can function as Christ wanted the church to function. God bless you!
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+1 # Ian 2009-10-30 22:37
Hi Yanti

Yes thats true. Someone said recently "we should stop just going to church and be the Church."
Blessings
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0 # Dan 2009-10-31 22:10
Awesome message Ian, It confirms alot of things in my life right now. When we have idols in place, how can we change our mind? And come to full repentance and get closer to Jesus! Bring it on!
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0 # Ian 2009-10-31 22:18
Yes exactly true
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0 # Robert 2009-10-31 22:35
Always interesting when the evangelists beat up the church but when they need a service/offering, the pastor's phone rings off the hook. Could it be that the church is the best thing God's got going on earth?
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0 # Ian 2009-10-31 22:44
The Church (the body of Christ) is an awesome thing. The idol called the church is not - its an idol. Just because something is called the church doesnt make it the Church of the Lord
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+1 # Robert 2009-10-31 22:38
It's easy to beat up on the church and it's leadership but when the evangelists/prophets/teachers and apostles need an offering, the pastor's phone rings off the hook...need that offering from those congregationali sts.
That's where the gathering of good folks can be found on a weekly basis.
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+1 # Ian 2009-10-31 22:50
Quoting Robert:
It's easy to beat up on the church and it's leadership but when the evangelists/prophets/teachers and apostles need an offering, the pastor's phone rings off the hook...need that offering from those congregationali sts.

Yes that is one area the Lord has dealt with me as an itinerate minister - to stop playing the game. I have stopped ringing for meetings, stopped promoting our ministry by 'I'm available' leaflets and building 'relationships' with pastors [to get meetings] etc etc for over three years. to be honest the game ministry plays makes me sick.

If God cant speak to a pastor to get us to minister then I'm not interested in playing the game.

It is also why God has made us financially independent so that we dont 'need' meetings to supply our needs.
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0 # Ted 2009-11-01 00:23
What if you can still minster in churches without playing "the game"? I agree that on a certain level the "church" has become an idol, but who will go to he place that are misdirected and lead them to the truth? I've dealt with deep bitterness and cynicism regarding Towards the church, and it didn't lead me anywhere. It is easy to make things black and white when we feel passionately about something, but there are many shades of color on this topic. There are options than being part of the "game" and being "on your own". Relationally, financially, ministry-wise it borders on pride to declare that you've found a way apart from the people of God. "Ah, they've got it wrong, I'll just do this on my own." "Ah, I was part of a game. It involved other people. I'll do I on my own." I'd encourage you to seek the right kind of connections, the right kind of motives, and bring the right kind of ministry and revelation. Perhaps you're starting with this series. But please, as you reject idols, do not reject the real thing, either in theory or in practice. See that which is broken be redeemed.
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0 # Ian 2009-11-01 00:44
Yes we are still ministering in Churches and trying desperately to 'not play the game' - I have battled whether I have become critical or not and honestly conclude I am not. We havnt been hurt by 'church' and the revelations the Lord has given us started when I was in a Leadership conference enjoying the sermon immensely when He almost audibly spoke to me and messed my world up. I was a 'successful' (whatever that is) itinerant preacher, happy with the way I was until the Lord started revealing stuff firstly in me and then the wider 'church'.

I do relate to other ministers, in fact other ministers actually confide in me often (statement of fact not pride) and the whole financial security issue the Lord has been building into our life and ministry is making a lot of sense now because many people in the system we were in (and I am talking purely about the idol called the church - not the Church of the Lord) would not invite us to speak against their idol. Also it allows us to go to places that could not afford us to go. It also stops us 'ministering' because we need to put food on the table.

About doing this on my own - I am encouraged by ALL the Lord is doing around the Earth that confirms I am not on my own preaching my own little wheelbarrow. Whole churches are getting this revelation. In the USA recently a whole city of churches shut their doors one sunday and told the people to go and BE the Church.

I think God is actually saying something through prophetic voices around the Earth.

Thanks for your concern about rejecting the real - I believe I have a firm grasp on the real and will be sharing that in upcoming articles.

Thanks for taking the time to write your comments.

Many blessings
Ian
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0 # Jill 2009-10-31 23:08
Thank you for this Ian. I have been "in church" since 1965 until the last few years. My whole life revolved around THE CHURCH. But over the last few yrs God has brought change. One Church closed down, the next one moved away...and we are now on our own with God!! What freedom..we find His people everywhere. We have fellowship in the Warehouse carpark, we pray for one another in the Mall...this is His Church, His people meeting spontaneouly, loving one another, encouraging each other, putting our money where we see a need. Every now and then I think I need a church, and God reminds me ...we are a Church! The Holy Spirit leading us, bringing us together with those who love Jesus!
Don't stop preaching..this is great stuff!
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+1 # Ian 2009-10-31 23:20
Thanks Jill

Yes the Lord showed me a year or so ago about finding God outside the walls of Church.
View video on home page (up the top)

We need to be the Church. Not just go to a church.

more about that in future publications.

blessings
Ian
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-1 # Ross 2009-11-02 09:40
Mmmm...Ive heard plenty of this: "we are the church" over many years - thus justifying the need not to attend one and we can all kind of just float around and 'rub into' each other occasionally in a kind of universal spirit of Christian love. My observation of these deceived individuals - is there's seldom ever any mention of cold face soul winning and making disciples of which Ive found the best place to do that - is in a church body of believers with gifted people who love Jesus and share their God given talents with each other. (1 Peter 4:10) Of course it can be done "outside the walls" and is biblical indeed - save one, then two - break bread save and teach a few more...darn ! next thing you know you've got a.... ""church"" ?! :)
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0 # Ian 2009-11-02 20:40
Thanks Ross.

I am sorry but your statement is 'Exactly' what I am talking about.

Quoting Ross:
Mmmm...Ive heard plenty of this: "we are the church" over many years - thus justifying the need not to attend one

Sorry but we 'are' the Church - we dont attend one. This is exactly where our theology fails because we dont attend a church but we can assemble as the church to worship.

Quoting Ross:
and we can all kind of just float around and 'rub into' each other occasionally in a kind of universal spirit of Christian love. My observation of these deceived individuals - is there's seldom ever any mention of cold face soul winning and making disciples of which

Maybe you have not heard of a huge revival of souls being saved in places like China where these "deceived individuals" are actually part of the body and working outside the walls of a western church structure

Quoting Ross:
Ive found the best place to do that - is in a church body of believers with gifted people who love Jesus and share their God given talents with each other. (1 Peter 4:10) Of course it can be done "outside the walls" and is biblical indeed - save one, then two - break bread save and teach a few more...darn ! next thing you know you've got a.... ""church"" ?! :)

sorry mate but again we dont "get a church" - when someone is born again they become part of the body of Christ - the church - they may assemble as the church in a home, park or even a designated public building but no where should we call that building 'the church' - please stay tuned to upcoming articles of what the church is as I believe we desperately need correct theology.

Thanks for your input
Ian
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+1 # Kola 2009-11-01 02:49
Yes, I do beleive alot is going on the church that need to come into alignment. We do need to challenge some of our traditional way of thinking so we can truly advance the Kingdom.
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0 # Kola 2009-11-01 02:55
The problem in the church is that I have problem when we began all this hero worship. I do beleive we should honour the five-fold but not to worship them. And the makes us to go to "church" to feel good without being change
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0 # Ian 2009-11-01 04:50
well said
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0 # Peter 2009-11-01 10:00
Ian, thank you! I am a travelling preacher as well. I am with you. The games many churches play! I have been preaching the same message as you have been saying. The Lord is saying something very important! The Parable of the wheat and tares, I belive applies to the church as well. There are many in church that are tares. I am like you as well in that I never advertise or ask for services or meetings. The Lord opens the doors and I work as well. To our brothers and sisters who think that this talk is hating the church. It is not! We love the church and we don't want to see her sick! If my wife has an illness I will be radical in attacking that sickness. The treatment might have to be hard but it is necessary. The Spirit is preparing the bride for the husband. Remember as well how Jesus treated many of the Pharisses, the pastors of the day! The axe is being laid at the root!
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0 # Ian 2009-11-01 18:38
I believe God is saying something right around the body of Christ. Those with ears will hear. Some say the church is in transition which I agree. Transition from church age to Kingdom age. It has to be about the Kingdom and the King.

Thanks for your comments
Ian
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0 # Keith 2009-11-02 06:46
Yes. You are right. Strictly speaking the Father did not plant the church. He planted His Son Jesus. Those who join themselves to Jesus are the church. Those who plant Jesus seed His Church. Jesus clearly states that He builds His church out of worshipers - those who exclaim You are Lord and Christ! On the rock of this adoration Jesus builds His people who are His church of living stones. Is that cool or is that cool?!
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0 # Russell 2009-11-02 09:12
Thanks for your out look for the Church We need to get the Church to be the Church instead of just another group Keep up the good work
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0 # Michael 2009-11-02 21:04
You are on a good and interesting journey, a parallel of which started some 8 years ago for us. Keep listening to Holy Spirit and keep allowing Him to make you more radical and compassionate, more attuned to our Father’s heart and seeing it all from His point of view. His point of view is very different from what we tend to think as baby and child believers. (1 John 2) We are still very self centred and it is as we go through the young man and into the fathers part of this journey into our Father that we begin to really see all of this Family of God stuff as He sees it and oh how different it all looks. This place of sure and powerful humble heartedness is interesting and awesome because it is more full of Him and communion with Him than we can imagine. Keep walking on brother Jesus is alive and well and living in Us and He is so worth it.

Best regards and blessings
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0 # Gary 2009-11-02 21:05
Dear Ian,

You are a true man of God. God has given you this revelation for the Body of Christ. Many of us have struggled with these issues for many years also.

We have taught all our children the word of God from very young ages. Our eldest daughter (23 yrs), sings in a large AOG church on sundays etc.

One day she came home excited, and said, she had just witness to a non christian friend for hours, and that her friend said she may come to church with our daughter.

I asked what did she say to her? Our daughter said, she told her friend all about the church! How great the music is, how nice (most of) the people are, how cool the church building is etc...

My wife Kim and myself where shocked! This is not what we taught our family. I said to her witnessing is all about Jesus, His work on the cross etc... I ask her, did she remember what we taught her? She said, she forgot. She said, she mainly listens to her pastor now.

He continually cast his church vision, like fishermen casting their fishing nets. The most important thing to many of the 700 people in this church, is this pastor's vision.

I've met her pastor, he's young, very strong willed. I came away not feeling very good, I thought he'd destroy anything, or anyone, who gets in the way of his vision!

However, this church has a good name in the community.
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0 # Ian 2009-11-03 01:57
Gary unfortunately this is yet another one of many cases where we see this idol manifesting. It either has become more prevalent over recent years or scales have fallen off our eyes so that we can see clearly.

May we all have ears to hear and eyes to see what the Spirit is saying to the Church of the Lord.
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0 # Neil 2009-11-02 21:07
I have read your article called "An idol called the church (pt 1)". I agree with your thoughts and conclusions about the 'church'. I suspect there's a lot more to be said, too, presumably in parts 2 and ..... however many parts there will be.

However, there is one part that I think was uncalled for because it was, in your own description, presumption. You used the phrases "may not have" and "probably" but still went on to elaborate. This kind of conjecture tends to discredit the rest of the points being made in the article. The passage in question is shown below:

"I was watching Australian Idol where they interviewed one of the contestants and during the whole segment he talked about how the church saved him from his old life - how good his life has been since he went to church. He went on about the church this and the church that and I thought what about Jesus! - he never mentioned Him, God, the Lord, the Holy Spirit once, just how great the church was.

Now you may be thinking (as I have questioned myself) that I'm just getting critical. But you see this guy may not have really understood what he was saying - he was probably taught this by the idol that has crept into the church called 'the church'."

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Australian Idol. Having been in the music industry for nearly 40 years, both on the performing side and the recording production and engineering side, I am keen to watch Idol every week. A few years ago there was the so-called Hillsong vote-stacking 'scandal', highly publicised by rival channel 7. This was because 9 out of the top 10 that year were professing Christians and 6 or 7 of those were associated with AOG churches (not Hillsong specifically). Apart from the fact that it is impossible for outsiders to rig the vote, the whole thing died down because there was no substance in the accusations. However, it did throw an unwanted spotlight on Christian contestants, with judge Kyle Sandilands publicly ordering one contestant to not talk about that God stuff when responding to a question. Subsequent to those times, contestants have visibly been much less free to talk about their convictions. i.e. in spite of your complaint that, "he never mentioned Him, God, the Lord, the Holy Spirit once", I would suspect that the guy would have been edited out even if he had not been told that such phrases were banned from air. So, where might my suspicions come from? Apart from watching the changes in freedom over the last 3 years especially, one of this year's top 24 was the son of a personal friend. There were many worse things happening behind the scenes than just what I've mentioned here.

You have said, "you see this guy may not have really understood what he was saying - he was probably taught this". I suspect that he had been told to not 'Bible-bash' on air (or similar phraseology) and that the young man thought he was doing well in that his past life was able to discussed at all. I also suspect that, having been acutely aware of the changes over the last 6 years, that the word 'church' is harmless enough to be used on air but not the words, 'Jesus', God' or 'Holy Spirit'. My suspicion is also
*not* that the guy was "probably taught this". This is a totally unfounded assumption on your part. I suspect he was just being wise and not causing trouble where it was pointless to do so. If he wins, and if it is Stan, then I am thinking that he will, he will have more opportunity to witness Jesus that he would ever have had under normal circumstances.

I hope you are not offended by my pointing this out to you. I agree with what you are saying overall. I'm not sure whether or not you consider yourself to be in prophetic ministry, but, in either case, it is important to not make a case out of an assumption, or use it as evidence.
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0 # Ian 2009-11-02 21:19
Thanks Neil.

What you say 'may be so' but you see we are fighting overall against forces that are trying to stop or at least water down the power of the Gospel - your comments are probably correct (I dont know as I am not in the industry) but they dont negate the fact that the same devil is working in and out of the 'church' trying to as I said stop the power of the Gospel. There really is no power in the 'church' without the gospel, Jesus, The Lord, His word or the Holy Spirit.


Please read Gary's comments above as yet another example.
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0 # Leon 2009-11-03 00:35
Great, man it takes ages to reform the church' (the Body of Christ, the community of believers in the World) to shift it from oraganisation based, gift base, servant based. But yee-haa! it is happening. Moving to Jesus based (Glorybased), relastionship based, Kingdom based, sonship based. The sooner we do the sooner we can see the World move into a cultural kingdom Glory revolution.
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0 # Brian 2009-11-03 08:57
Hi Brother of the Lord Jesus Christ Ian, are you saying the 'church' is a CULT?
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0 # Ian 2009-11-03 19:00
As far as the definition of a cult goes no. An idol yes. An idol is something that takes the place of God. What I am talking about is that within the Church there is an idol called the church.
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0 # Mark 2009-11-03 09:22
I agree with u, Ive been a part of the "organisation" for to long, we are largely trained to sit in pews, I estimate ive listened to around 1800 sermons since I 1st became a Christian and Im not sure thats Gods vision for bringing the people of God into their membership ministries and seeing the army of God taking the kingdom.

I believe that God wants to radically change the way church functions, imagine the impact for the Kingdom if each individual believer found out what their role is and was trained, activated and encouraged to function how God intended as in Eph 4
We would see Unity and maturity and revival.
Secularism teaches that God does not exist but as the army of God arises we are going to be able to challange these beliefs world wide
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0 # Ian 2009-11-03 19:05
Yes God wants His body of believers to 'be' the Church. To come out from under the idol called the church and be the Church. We leaders are responsible for training the body to do the work of the ministry.

I praise God that His army is rising up. That as Jesus said "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
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0 # George Samuel 2009-11-09 06:43
Dear Ian,

Thank you for your thoughts on "Church"
I agree with most of it as this is what the sripture says. It's high time to remove the cathedral concept from our mind. Church(Ecclesia )is only the called out ones from the kingdom of satan. They are not suppose to be confined in a building which people meaninglessly calls a church. We are calledout ones to go and involved in the advancement of HIs KIngdom. Jesus taught us to pray for His Kingom to come. The Spirit of God is doing this through out the world.

Church even can gather under the shade of a tree. I had the privilege to speak to the church under the shade of the tree with out confined to four walls. I still remember, the people outside the church watched us and heard the gospel and became a part of the church (and notpart of a building. We need, I suppose another reformation to bring out people from unsriptural ideas about church and from cleargy/laity ideas.

Blessings !!!

Ps George Samuel
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0 # Brian Pringle 2009-11-12 07:04
Dear Brother, would you say you are a critic of the church? Maybe if you changed translations to the TNIV then that might help.

Always wanting to be a helper brother...
Brian
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0 # Ian 2009-11-12 21:03
No Brother - I am opposed to the Idol called the church that unfortunately is in the church.
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0 # nalada 2009-11-14 02:55
i am a foreign cross cultural missionary. i attend a church where everything happens in the 4 walls of the church building. these people have adopted a 'western mentality' church. they have westerners prophecy how God will prosper and bless their church. become a christian and 'get rich' these people lack vision and motivation for the kingdom because of their 'poverty' mentality that westerners promote with their prosperity doctrine. the same people who attend church get prayed for each sunday. as a missionary it is very difficult to help the indiginous peoples with whom i work to understand there is a mission field outside the '4 walls' and that god doesn't depend on their earthly prosperity to achieve his purposes through them.
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0 # mohammad 2009-12-11 16:29
Thank you so much for your awesome easy understanding of the correct word for the Body of Christ, it is indeed the right time of the the true shift in our old mentalities while God is releasing a new apostolic truth in the earth.
It is the time of reformation of all things in the life of the believers and your teaching and hard work is part of that investment in the true principles of the Kingdom advance in the earth.
It is truly the time to depart from the false and join the true assembly of God's people which will result in joining to the HEAD, the Christ.
I do commend you and thank you.


Building together accurately,
Forcefully advancing ,
And Finishing all.
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