Before I continue with part 4 of ‘An idol called the church’ I would like to make two points.
1/ Incorrect use of study material causes confusion.
One pastor commented on Part 3 of “an Idol called the Church”.
"You are saying that the Greek word ekklesia does not mean church, and is miss-translated. The Strong's reference (1577) to the word church uses both words: assembly and church. This reference is saying they are both the same."
“I have trusted the Strong's Concordance for many years, but here you are saying it is incorrect? Maybe you should take your Greek translation issues up with them as many pastors rely on its accuracy."
My answer:- May I humbly suggest rather, that those that use Strong's, use it correctly. The instructions on how to use Strong's (in the front of printed versions) say that the text before the :- is the meaning of the word. Text after the :- is how the King James Version translated it. (not what the word means).
So where it says :- Assembly, Church - this is stating just what the KJV uses, not the meaning
2/ Dismissing truth brings bondage
I can’t believe the amount of people including leaders emailing me that dismiss things because it just doesn’t fit their box. They have coloured glasses that they will not take off to see anything different. They dismiss things with a ‘but’. Statements like ‘what you say is true but ....’ I agree with what you say but .....’ They then justify why they are continuing in their error.
This is very dangerous because it is agreeing with and then dismissing a truth. It is dangerous because knowing the truth sets you free. Dismissing it brings bondage. It is like for example someone saying “I agree that the bible says adultery is wrong but people are only human and they really love each other” they dismiss the truth and go into bondage.
When people say things like “I agree with what you say ekklesia means but we will continue to do ‘church’ our way because we love Jesus” - this is playing right into the hands of the idol.
It seems like people totally agree with this teaching or they vehemently oppose it.
I have had meetings cancelled in a way that is very un-Christlike to the opposite side of the coin - new invitations coming in ‘because of’ the teaching. From rude emails from so called ‘Christians’ to groups of ministries asking permission to re-print the articles. I am amazed at the hornet’s nest that this has stirred up. Pastors condemning what I am saying, Leaders of movements telling others not to have anything to do with me and yet so many other pastors, leaders and others giving great endorsement and encouragement to me.
From my experience so far those that vehemently oppose this have the most to lose, have their own agenda or are simply misquoting what is being said.
I have said for years that revival is coming but it’s not through a church or an organization or a person even – it is a body revival where the body of Christ rises up in revival to go and continue to do in the world what Christ started to do in the world.
Where the body of Christ is unshackled from religious systems that offer no life because that life is sapped by the idol. People are going to be revived to relationship instead religion and this will be fostered by personal connection to the Vine instead of programs designed to keep people busy.
My advice to leaders – hold loosely what you have. The idol will bind you to property instead of people. Position instead of calling. Serve the Lord and His body, not the idol.
I know scores of pastors that are shackled to their system by church buildings where their denomination control them by owning the building or has some other control. I know some that have wrestled for years because they would lose possessions or position that finally said “I let go”. One pastor recently turned up on my doorstep and said how fulfilled he was now by being out of the bondage he was in for years. He said “I baptised 16 people last week - I have never baptised that amount of people before – we have more people turning up and they are excited about Jesus”. He was genuinely free from the burdens he carried for years being shackled to the idol.
I am not saying we shouldn’t, as Christians, assemble together as a body in a building or a place – what I am saying is:-
Part 4 ‘An idol called the church’.
A Church is not a building. (so why do we keep calling a building or organization a church)
Nowhere in the Bible is the PLACE where Christians meet referred to as a "church", nowhere.
Never does ekklesia refer to a BUILDING in which people gathered, for worship or for any other purpose, Never.
The ‘church’ building (or place of worship) is so connected with the idea of church that we unconsciously equate the two. (Frank Viola)
The idol called the church (where people worship the church rather than Christ) is actually rooted in ancient temple worship (this is still practised by most other religions on earth today)
Temple worship actually goes back to Judaism where that religion was centred on three things – the temple, the priesthood and the sacrifice. When Jesus came He ended all three.
Christianity started off as the only religion on the planet that had no sacred objects, sacred people and no sacred places – they had no sacred buildings for their worship.
Ekklesia is not a physical place it is an assembly of people.
In the New Testament it primarily refers to the spiritual Body of Christ on the earth. "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints [holy ones] for the work of service, to the building up of THE BODY OF CHRIST; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the true knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13).
The Body of Christ is the true assembly of believers - the habitation of God as was the temple in the Old Testament.
Maybe we get our mindset of the church (building / organization) being the central part of our Western Christianity from the Old Testament where the temple was a dwelling place of God – but this is done away with in the New Testament.
If you don’t believe me when I say “the church (building / organization) being the central part of our Western Christianity” – try not ‘going to church’ for a while to see how you are labelled (backslidden, off track, not really functioning in the body come to mind – even rebellious)
The writer of Hebrews, in chapter 9, describes the Old Testament temple; its appearance and the activities of the Levite priests (vs. 1-8). He then compares it to the temple of Christ as follows:
" But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle [or sacred tent] not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building (Hebrews 9:11).
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
A building is not the habitation of God anymore.
The true assembly of believers of God is not of this world but is a spiritual dwelling place for God.
In the Old Testament both the temple in the wilderness and Solomon's temple were filled with the Spirit of God, to the extent that the priests could not even stand to minister. In the Old Testament God actually dwelled in the temples made by men.
In the New Testament, under the new covenant instituted by Christ, God no longer will dwell in a physical temple. His house will be within His believers. We of the Body of Christ are His dwelling place forever.
Paul never refers to the church as a physical structure but as a dedicated group of disciples; a new race redeemed by the blood of Christ (Mounce's Expository Dictionary).
"And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice [chosen, elect] and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
All sources agree that ‘church’ denotes not a physical structure but a living, eternal spiritual dwelling place. The Body is one but has various expressions and gifts given to each individual member, all for the purpose of the building up of the Body (see 1 Corinthians 12). Christ is the head of His body and the remainder of His true spiritual Body is filled with the elect ones, the Saints, the chosen including those who have gone on. The gifts of the Spirit are given to each member as the Lord sees fit. People don't "join" the Body as they do in a modern day church; they are placed there by the Lord.
Paul said:
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints [holy ones] and are of God's household,
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple [sanctuary] in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:20-22).
So the church building is no longer inhabited by God – it is not the house of God anymore, it is not sacred. But the body of Christ is now being built up as a dwelling place of God, the body of Christ is now the temple, and individuals are of the household of God.
Now, here is the clincher
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
What agreement has a temple of God with idols? None. Repent and turn away from idols, repent and turn away from the idol called the church to Christ.
I am not saying turn away from assembling together as the assembly of believers in Christ but I am saying turn away from the idol called the church.
The glory doesn’t reside anymore in the building or organization.
Where God’s glory resides (from the temple -> Christ -> body of Christ).
Attributed most often to Rev. Sam Pascoe. It is a short version of the history of Christianity, and it goes like this: Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America (the west) and became an enterprise.
Next time:- The assembly of believers is an organism not an organization. A body not a business. An entity not an enterprise.
1/ Incorrect use of study material causes confusion.
One pastor commented on Part 3 of “an Idol called the Church”.
"You are saying that the Greek word ekklesia does not mean church, and is miss-translated. The Strong's reference (1577) to the word church uses both words: assembly and church. This reference is saying they are both the same."
“I have trusted the Strong's Concordance for many years, but here you are saying it is incorrect? Maybe you should take your Greek translation issues up with them as many pastors rely on its accuracy."
My answer:- May I humbly suggest rather, that those that use Strong's, use it correctly. The instructions on how to use Strong's (in the front of printed versions) say that the text before the :- is the meaning of the word. Text after the :- is how the King James Version translated it. (not what the word means).
So where it says :- Assembly, Church - this is stating just what the KJV uses, not the meaning
2/ Dismissing truth brings bondage
I can’t believe the amount of people including leaders emailing me that dismiss things because it just doesn’t fit their box. They have coloured glasses that they will not take off to see anything different. They dismiss things with a ‘but’. Statements like ‘what you say is true but ....’ I agree with what you say but .....’ They then justify why they are continuing in their error.
This is very dangerous because it is agreeing with and then dismissing a truth. It is dangerous because knowing the truth sets you free. Dismissing it brings bondage. It is like for example someone saying “I agree that the bible says adultery is wrong but people are only human and they really love each other” they dismiss the truth and go into bondage.
When people say things like “I agree with what you say ekklesia means but we will continue to do ‘church’ our way because we love Jesus” - this is playing right into the hands of the idol.
It seems like people totally agree with this teaching or they vehemently oppose it.
I have had meetings cancelled in a way that is very un-Christlike to the opposite side of the coin - new invitations coming in ‘because of’ the teaching. From rude emails from so called ‘Christians’ to groups of ministries asking permission to re-print the articles. I am amazed at the hornet’s nest that this has stirred up. Pastors condemning what I am saying, Leaders of movements telling others not to have anything to do with me and yet so many other pastors, leaders and others giving great endorsement and encouragement to me.
From my experience so far those that vehemently oppose this have the most to lose, have their own agenda or are simply misquoting what is being said.
I have said for years that revival is coming but it’s not through a church or an organization or a person even – it is a body revival where the body of Christ rises up in revival to go and continue to do in the world what Christ started to do in the world.
Where the body of Christ is unshackled from religious systems that offer no life because that life is sapped by the idol. People are going to be revived to relationship instead religion and this will be fostered by personal connection to the Vine instead of programs designed to keep people busy.
My advice to leaders – hold loosely what you have. The idol will bind you to property instead of people. Position instead of calling. Serve the Lord and His body, not the idol.
I know scores of pastors that are shackled to their system by church buildings where their denomination control them by owning the building or has some other control. I know some that have wrestled for years because they would lose possessions or position that finally said “I let go”. One pastor recently turned up on my doorstep and said how fulfilled he was now by being out of the bondage he was in for years. He said “I baptised 16 people last week - I have never baptised that amount of people before – we have more people turning up and they are excited about Jesus”. He was genuinely free from the burdens he carried for years being shackled to the idol.
I am not saying we shouldn’t, as Christians, assemble together as a body in a building or a place – what I am saying is:-
Part 4 ‘An idol called the church’.
A Church is not a building. (so why do we keep calling a building or organization a church)
Nowhere in the Bible is the PLACE where Christians meet referred to as a "church", nowhere.
Never does ekklesia refer to a BUILDING in which people gathered, for worship or for any other purpose, Never.
The ‘church’ building (or place of worship) is so connected with the idea of church that we unconsciously equate the two. (Frank Viola)
The idol called the church (where people worship the church rather than Christ) is actually rooted in ancient temple worship (this is still practised by most other religions on earth today)
Temple worship actually goes back to Judaism where that religion was centred on three things – the temple, the priesthood and the sacrifice. When Jesus came He ended all three.
Christianity started off as the only religion on the planet that had no sacred objects, sacred people and no sacred places – they had no sacred buildings for their worship.
Ekklesia is not a physical place it is an assembly of people.
In the New Testament it primarily refers to the spiritual Body of Christ on the earth. "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints [holy ones] for the work of service, to the building up of THE BODY OF CHRIST; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the true knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13).
The Body of Christ is the true assembly of believers - the habitation of God as was the temple in the Old Testament.
Maybe we get our mindset of the church (building / organization) being the central part of our Western Christianity from the Old Testament where the temple was a dwelling place of God – but this is done away with in the New Testament.
If you don’t believe me when I say “the church (building / organization) being the central part of our Western Christianity” – try not ‘going to church’ for a while to see how you are labelled (backslidden, off track, not really functioning in the body come to mind – even rebellious)
The writer of Hebrews, in chapter 9, describes the Old Testament temple; its appearance and the activities of the Levite priests (vs. 1-8). He then compares it to the temple of Christ as follows:
" But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle [or sacred tent] not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building (Hebrews 9:11).
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
A building is not the habitation of God anymore.
The true assembly of believers of God is not of this world but is a spiritual dwelling place for God.
In the Old Testament both the temple in the wilderness and Solomon's temple were filled with the Spirit of God, to the extent that the priests could not even stand to minister. In the Old Testament God actually dwelled in the temples made by men.
In the New Testament, under the new covenant instituted by Christ, God no longer will dwell in a physical temple. His house will be within His believers. We of the Body of Christ are His dwelling place forever.
Paul never refers to the church as a physical structure but as a dedicated group of disciples; a new race redeemed by the blood of Christ (Mounce's Expository Dictionary).
"And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice [chosen, elect] and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
All sources agree that ‘church’ denotes not a physical structure but a living, eternal spiritual dwelling place. The Body is one but has various expressions and gifts given to each individual member, all for the purpose of the building up of the Body (see 1 Corinthians 12). Christ is the head of His body and the remainder of His true spiritual Body is filled with the elect ones, the Saints, the chosen including those who have gone on. The gifts of the Spirit are given to each member as the Lord sees fit. People don't "join" the Body as they do in a modern day church; they are placed there by the Lord.
Paul said:
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints [holy ones] and are of God's household,
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple [sanctuary] in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:20-22).
So the church building is no longer inhabited by God – it is not the house of God anymore, it is not sacred. But the body of Christ is now being built up as a dwelling place of God, the body of Christ is now the temple, and individuals are of the household of God.
Now, here is the clincher
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
What agreement has a temple of God with idols? None. Repent and turn away from idols, repent and turn away from the idol called the church to Christ.
I am not saying turn away from assembling together as the assembly of believers in Christ but I am saying turn away from the idol called the church.
The glory doesn’t reside anymore in the building or organization.
Where God’s glory resides (from the temple -> Christ -> body of Christ).
Attributed most often to Rev. Sam Pascoe. It is a short version of the history of Christianity, and it goes like this: Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America (the west) and became an enterprise.
Next time:- The assembly of believers is an organism not an organization. A body not a business. An entity not an enterprise.
An idol called the ‘church’ Part 3
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Comments
we preach relationship and practice enterprise.. god forgive us...
Once again thank you for a well written artical It is so refreshing to get some one writing as should be We seem to be in a world that is continuely chasing moon beams I for one want to see the fear of the Lord back in the assembly thanks again
God Bless
Russell
what you are saying about the church being an Idol is exactly what we have been saying for quite a few years,in fact it got so bad that as we were going to "church" God intervened in our lives and told us to stop going so we did. We have tried going back a few times but the Idol is still there so our fellowship is on the net at moment though we know God has plans for us but in His timing.Thankyou so much for being so honest and in Gods will. May Jesus bless you in all that you do and say. Colin and Marie Jones
The biggest problem we have in doing Church is that it tends to copy the current cultural currents of the day. Also Imperial attitudes die hard as they reinforce status and control.
Time to stop fellowshipping with the back of the head of the person in the pew in front, and to join about the table in face to face fellowship as disciples.
It was observed by JI Packer in one of his books that "with modern corporate management systems, the church can keep going of centuries with out a touch from the Spirit..." Perhaps some people have finally woken up and are now voting with their feet
Keep shaking the tree.
JEH
Ian you will be stirring the hornets up. Great stuff. If our belief systems can be challenged they should be. We are either built on a rock or sand. If my faith is based on sand I want someone to have the courage to blast it. Well done. Part 3 rocked me a bit because I believe and enjoy the concept of ekklesia meaning "a people called out" Kind of fits nice with being not of this word, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. Still chewing over this one. I believe ekklesia to be more than assembly, or congregation. My bad?
Just read 4 and totally found no sand blasted there mate. You nailed it.
I can understand how this download by you will be hitting so many in tender parts, as it is shaking their security.
Great! What can be shaken will be shaken so that that which cannot be shaken shall remain. The Kingdom cannot be shaken!
I have just returned from ministry in India. The church there (sorry assembly)is very old testiment model. Turn up to a holy building (take shoes off), priesthood download a sermon, priesthood pray, go home.
After 3 days of teaching in line with your no 4 teaching, and releasing "common" people into ministry by baptising them in the Holy Spirit I am recieving testimonies of these people performing miraculous healings in their villages and sparking revivals, starting up cell churches in villages, restoration of ministries and families, etc etc. Basically the Gospel is exploding through Christians doing Christianity, who were 1 week ago sitting down on their butts in a "church" meeting. Why? They got free of religious bondage.
I do see gatherings as vital for christians. Don't throw the baby out with ther bathwater. I also fully believe the body of Christ (people) grow by sitting, hearing, being challenged by "annointed" preaching.
They also grow in living and joining in community, incouraging one another.
Also 1 will put a thousand to flight 2 ten thousand so power in unity. Unity = walking in one direction = direction = leadership= serving.
There thats my bit for what it's worth. Love the debate and still love you bro.
By the way you could have bought this up before I painted church on our new building and did our logo etc. Flippin troublemaker!
Kind regards,
Jim
Romans 5:10 “having been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, we shall be saved by His life.” The first part deals with the Cross, the last part resurrection. When we enthrone Christ as the Captain of our Salvation, the Child of Redemption cries “For me to live is Christ!” and “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh [in my natural life] I live by THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.” My former self is replaced by a new self, Jesus. The flow and surge of that glorious Life we once fell short of becomes our possession, Divine life, that is not a struggle, but a rest, it is Strength, Healing; as well as Power. Not the power of endless fresh anointings, but a discovery of “that anointing that remains”, not another wave, or revival, but the steady irresistible power of His Life and Joy and Peace, from him who promised to never leave us, nor forsake us. A clear and strong confidence that we are permanently in Christ and him in us as unchangeable, unshakeable, unmoveable’ God and me together.
A life free of the striving and straining of self – effort do it yourself believerism, to a life in the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord! Jesus promised that “out of your innermost being rivers would flow”, our hearts have become the riverbed, and His Life is the river. Saved by his life, He flows through us, constantly giving, imparting, radiating, and infusing; until our very lives are HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD! Our natures are transformed by His glorious Nature Divine! There is no other way. The surrender must not be partial; it must be UNCONDITIONAL! In ALL our ways, we acknowledge Him, that He may direct our paths! Christ birthed, to Christ formed in you, a living reflection of one who is indwelt by a God of love. Saved by his life, we become a living expression of the God who loved us, to a dying world.
Bravo Thank you for writing the truth even though many don’t want to hear it, because it means we have to make a decision, we can’t act like we didn’t know it was happening. We personally have to say black or white...... no grey.
I remember as a young Christian hearing a message on a plumbline, saying that if we don’t have a standard (plumbline), to measure what we believe, we don’t realize how far away we have moved from the truth, it may only be slight but down the track we are way out to the side.
Thank you for walking a walk that requires you to “stand” for Jesus.
He called Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees
He called Israel out of Egypt
He called his Son out of Egypt
He has called us out of the world. If a christian doesn't know that he's a called -out one, then he hasn't been taught properly
2)Jesus didn't come preaching the Church. He came preaching the KINGDOM. Check it out-I counted church mentioned about 3 times in the gospel, KINGDOM mentioned about 103 times. Shouldn't that tell us something?
IF the church behaves itself properly it MAY receive the KINGDOM-but that is NOT guaranteed. Jesus said to natural Israel The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you. What is to stop him doing the same to spiritual Israel? (which the church prides itself on being)
Remember, Jesus told of two sons that were asked to go and work by their father. The first said I will, and went not. The second said I wont, but did go.
The church has boldly said I will go and be God's love to the world. But has it? Natural Israel rejected the gospel from the early days of Pauls's preaching-but what if now at the end of the age it repents and starts to do the will of the Father?
(For a gloves-off revelation of "church" read "The Counterfeit Church " by Shaun Kearney, who was Chairman of the Auckland (NZ) Pentescostal Ministers Fraternal about 33 years ago. You'll find his writings on www.kingdomline.com
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