Thank you again for your many comments, emails and phone calls affirming these articles and my stance against the idol. The articles have been reprinted by various ministries, placed on other websites etc which is great because it is getting the word out.
Many also affirm what I am saying by having the same revelation, some even years ago, but I think the revelation that what we are facing is an actual idol has put it all into context of what we have been seeing, hearing etc over the years.
Some dear people still don’t get it and are actually defending the idol. Not one has challenged the teaching with scripture / theology. They only object through the mindset they have on the subject. A ‘mind’ that is ‘set’ on a thing is called a stronghold. I pray all will come out of the shadow of this idol and see clearly.
It amazes me how we got into this mess in the first place – but then we are fighting a very deceptive enemy.
I pray that we all see scripture with eyes wide open and not read it with our Greek Philosophical glasses on. There are many instances in scripture where we need correct understanding. For a very, very simple example in point. Do you realize that there were not 3 wise men following the star going to visit Jesus. (the bible doesn’t actually say how many) That they didn’t see Jesus in a manger (He was probably around 2 years old when they visited Him in a house). Yet for whatever reason when we read this account in Matt 2 we see in our mind 3 wise men visiting Jesus as a baby in a manger.
I am only using this as a clear example of how we read things through a mindset, whether it be from a tradition mindset or a repetitive viewing of pictures when we were children of the 3 wise men and Jesus in the manger.
We see everything through a mindset or a way of thinking. The Bible actually calls a mindset a ‘stronghold’. Regarding the ekklesia we also see this through a mindset. For many it’s the mindset of the idol called the church. If we put these glasses on all we see is what the idol dictates.
Just to indicate one other point about our mind set – Is church planting in the Bible? Have you ever researched this without a church planting mindset? Did Jesus say “go and plant churches”? We have attributed the Apostle Paul as the greatest ‘church planter’ – did he actually plant churches? If not what did he actually do? We attribute the gift of Apostle to church planting. Did the Apostles plant churches? If our mindset of church planting is incorrect what do we do to get back to the commission of Jesus? (This will be another series of articles coming soon – I believe this will radically tie in all the answers many people have been asking me over the years of how do we get back to Christianity found in the book of Acts.)
In this study I am going to attempt to bring some answers to the problem of the idol called the church and to break strongholds, change mindsets and bring clarity.
I was going to leave the answers to the end of this series and once all the revelation had been laid out, but many have been asking for answers as they see the problem clearly or at least are starting to grasp it and want to start standing against this idol and implementing change.
The major problem is the mindset (stronghold) we have regarding the ‘church’.
When we say ‘church’ what do we mean?
The English word "church" has various meanings. Webster gives the following definitions for the word church.
1. a building for public Christian worship.
2. a religious service in such a building.
3. (sometimes cap.) a. the world body of Christian believers; Christendom. b. any major division of his body; a Christian denomination.
4. a Christian congregation.
5. organized religion as distinguished from the state.
6. (cap) a. The Christian before the reformation. b. the Roman Catholic Church.
So when we say church, what do we mean?
Do we mean a building?
Do we mean an organization?
Do we mean the body of Christ?
Or is there confusion between these descriptions as to what the church really is.
Again over the Christmas break I have heard people say things that just reinforce this confusion. Eg. “Years ago people went to the church for answers – now fewer people are seeking out the church”
“the church has lost its relevance – so we need to be more relevant by updating our church programs”
“bring them to church to get saved”
“my life was a mess before I started going to church – the church has turned my life around”
All of these statements (to mention only a few) reflect confusion at best and heresy at worst. To answer briefly.
People should seek Jesus, not the church.
How can the body of Christ, full of the power of the Holy Spirit be irrelevant?
How can the church save lives? How can the church change lives? Isn’t it Jesus that does that?
ANSWERS TO DEFEAT THE IDOL.
Some would say we need to wage war and pray against this idol. This may be so and I encourage you to actively seek God first about this and pray what He says. I do believe we need to pray against the idol but we also have to put ‘feet to our prayer’ and do something about it.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
I believe we need to re-educate ourselves and if we are leaders to re-educate those we teach. A mindset is started by incorrect teaching. It can be reversed by correct teaching (the truth shall set you free) A stronghold is used by an idol through the mindsets of people. Change the mindset and you take the stronghold away from the idol.
I have already shown in previous articles that the translation of the Greek word ‘ekklesia’ to the English word ‘church’ is incorrect.
To recap briefly.
An Ekklesia is not a building. (so why do we keep calling a building or organization a church)
Nowhere in the Bible is the PLACE where Christians meet referred to as a "church", nowhere.
Never does ekklesia refer to a BUILDING in which people gathered, for worship or for any other purpose, Never.
Ekklesia is not a physical place - it is an assembly of people.
I have also shown that the root word for church is not birthed in scripture but out of non Christian origin.
Some might say I now understand that we shouldn’t call a building or organization ekklesia or church but the body of Christ is the Ekklesia or church so why cant we use the term church to describe the body of Christ?
Today the word church has a wide variety of meanings from referring to a building to performing a religious service.
Unfortunately, when we hear the word ‘church’ our mind often paints a picture through those glasses filled with unbiblical characteristics. I believe it is time that Christians proclaim and reclaim a truly biblical concept of Ekklesia. Scripture confirms over and over again that an Ekklesia is the assembly of those who are called out of sin and called to Christ. Many of our modern concepts of ‘church’ are simply not found in Scripture and some even oppose Scripture.
The English dictionary reveals that the English word "church" which is used in our English Bibles is taken from the late Greek word "kyridakon" not "ekklesia." The Greek word "kyridakon" is not found in the New Testament and only came into being in the 16th Century long after New Testament times. Thus the English word "church" cannot be translated back into Greek because there is no word in the New Testament Greek that is the equivalent of the understanding of the English word.
Because there is so much confusion with the term ‘church’ I believe we should
1/ Remove the word ‘church’ from our vocabulary. When we do this we will see the change in our understanding of what we really mean when talking about ‘church’. Try and see how difficult it is to stop calling church, church. Everything is about church, so when we stop using the word we have to carefully choose another word to mean exactly what we mean. When "ekklesia" is translated correctly "assembly": "the assembly of God" or "the assembly of Christ." or even congregation as some ancient versions do and used in our conversation it begins to change many things that were associated with the idol called church. Ekklesia is all about the body of Christ, the people not the building or organization. We don’t go to church – we ‘assemble’ as the body of Christ whether it is in a special purpose building or on the beach. “Where two or three are gathered together in my name there I AM” Matt 18:20
Instead of saying “where do you go to church” you could say “where are you going to assemble”.
2/ Stop calling the building or organization, ‘church’. It is a ‘building’ and should be named such to avoid the continued confusion. We should stop calling the building a church, sanctuary, or the house of God (more teaching on this later) I suggest calling the building a centre, hall, assembly hall, fellowship hall. Eg stop saying things like “I am going to church”. The scriptural alternative is something like “I am going to assemble with other Christians to worship God meeting at such and such Christian Centre". (this is Ekklesia) So you could replace with something like I am going to the centre, the assembly hall or the fellowship hall. It takes the emphasis off the idol and onto the body because it is just a hall.
3/ Stop using statements such as "welcome to church today", "welcome to the house of God", "we need to build the church" or "I love being in church" and anything that refers to the building or organization as being the ekklesia. They are incorrect.
3/ Stop teaching incorrect theology. Examples:- bring people to church to be saved, the church is the most powerful force on earth etc. Church changed my life. House of God theology including ‘sons of the house’ etc (more on this erroneous teaching bringing people into bondage to the idol later)
4/ Start teaching correct theology – Examples:- Jesus is the only one that can save people from their sin and transform their life and the body of Christ full of the power of the Holy Spirit has all the relevancy needed to preach the Gospel to every creature.
Teach how the body of Christ can rise up, how each member has a part, a function (not just in services) but in serving Christ and each other. It seems we have been confusing services with serving.
Start training the body and releasing them to do the work of the ministry God has called them to do. Eph 4:11-12
5/ Stop using bibles that translate ekklessia incorrectly.
The first printed English translation of the Bible (Tyndale’s Translation circa 1526) accurately translated the Greek word Ekklesia as ‘congregation’ or ‘assembly’. However, most modern translations of the Bible translate Ekklesia as ‘church.’ This is done out of out of convenience to the readers since ‘church’ is the common cultural word used for an assembly of believers. However, this does not mean it is an accurate translation of Ekklesia.
William Tyndale's translation did not translate the word "ekklesia" as church. Tyndale's translation correctly used the term "congregation." Tyndale completed the translation of the New Testament and part of the Old Testament before he was martyred. John Rogers, an assistant and friend of William Tyndale, completed the translation of the Old Testament using some work from Coverdale and published the first entire Tyndale Bible under the pen name "Thomas Matthew." This Bible was called the Matthew's Bible (1537) and also used the term "congregation." The next English Bible, the Great Bible (1539), also used the term "congregation." However, in 1557 the Geneva New Testament, produced by William Whittingham, was the first to translate "ekklesia" as "church”.
The word "church" was first used by Theodore Beza in 1556, a Protestant, who followed John Calvin at Geneva, Switzerland. As a Presbyterian, Beza believed in the idea of a catholic church and its hierarchal form of government and therefore chose to support this false concept by using the word "church" instead of "assembly." The reason is obvious in that the use of the word "congregation" or "assembly" would not support his church's hierarchical form of church government. William Whittingham's Testament of 1557 followed Beza's usage of "church" and was actually the first edition of the Geneva Bible and was a revision of the Tyndale New Testament.
Because the Geneva Bible was printed in Europe and not in England the English people desired a Bible published in their native country. This was the reason for the next English Bible, the Bishops Bible (1568) which was a revision of the Geneva Bible and this translation continued the use of the term "church" as has majority of subsequent English translations including the King James Version. This shows that the use of the word "church" instead of "assembly" or "congregation" came from those who had a bias towards a hierarchical and unscriptural form of church government. To have translated the word "ekklesia" accurately into "assembly" or congregation" would have exposed their form of church government as being in error.
I suggest using older translations like, Darby or Youngs or younger translations like ‘The Source’ (which was translated by a Greek scholar rather than a theologian or denomination and was taken from the actual meanings of the Greek words rather than from the use of those words in previous versions of the bible)
To be continued.
An interesting time line of the bible can be seen here.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/
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I don't need inhalers either but I sure don't destroy them in the eyes of those who need them daily. Shame on you man!!!!! PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM YOUR COMPUTER FILE.YOU ARE A DISGRACEFUL SELFISH MAN WHOSE IDOL IS HIS OWN CONCEPT OF THE CHURCH AND A FEW LIKE MINDED CRONIES. RUTH McCLYMONT.
Ian
You state you have seen hundreds and thousands healed, physical dead raised, demons cast out.
Is this in New Zealand? or where? I have not heard about this, and I read widely.
Again I would repeat... theology or the church doesn't save souls only LOVE brings man to his knees in love and thence to love for Jesus and His sacrifice at Calvary. AND I would repeat that the physical church building speaks to the hearts and minds when others don't.
Another Ian I know asked me one day "Ruth, why is your Bible so tatty?" I replied "because it is well used but the message never changes.....no matter how tatty it gets" Don"t knock the church ....most people will only think you are knocking the physical building....and their faith can be damaged.
Finally I am sorry if I have damaged your conviction about what you are doing but it is not my desire
to damage anyone's faith or conviction.....they may be a faith growing and developing.
As a former teacher I am always very conscious of my audience.....I think about how and where my audience are at, and how my message will be received and interpreted. So whatever you think, you will find me next Sunday and every other one God gives me , in the symbol of Jesus' love and where there are others of like mind.Numbers 6 verses 24 - 26 RUTH
[Ian Say's] Apology accepted. I understand your anger when someone pushes against something you hold dear. May I respond to your points as I believe what you say is probably a normal reaction by most people.
I read most of what you wrote and I agree as a sincere christian with the theology of what you have written but theology doesn't save souls only the love of Jesus.
[Ian Say's] I agree that the love of Jesus is what saves souls and what motivates us to share the gospel but if you agree with the theology and continue in wrong theology by covering it with ‘love’ it is very dangerous Ruth. Actually correct theology does bring people to salvation. Eg if your theology about the cross is incorrect then salvation is distorted. There are many people sitting in churches with incorrect theology actually going to hell. They think they are saved because the church said say a little prayer and you are saved. They don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus, they have a relationship with the church they just joined like a club. I realize there are many, many people in churches that do have a personal relationship with Jesus but there are thousands and thousands that don’t. Have you ever read Matt 7:22-23 this is talking about the church that didn’t have a relationship with Jesus – He said even though the church did these works “I never knew you”.
What I feel you are doing is destroying the faith of some people for whom the physical church is the only witness they may ever hear.
[Ian Say's] destroying their faith in the church yes I agree. Destroying their faith in Jesus, an emphatic no – my desire is for them to build a personal relationship with Him. I thought I had a very, very good relationship with the Lord after nearly 30 years of ministry – praying hours each day, going to meeting after meeting, being used of God to perform miracles. When the Lord removed me from my ministry I found that I didn’t have much of a relationship with Him because my relationship with Him was church based, not relationship based. It was performance based instead of presence based.
The church no matter how faulty is a silent witness to many souls. There is a lot wrong with the church but nothing wrong with Jesus, but every Sunday in some form or another the love of Christ is demonstrated in the four walls of its physical being.....either in song ,scripture reading ,or the message.
[Ian Say's] Oh Ruth, I believe you are confusing the idol called the church and Jesus – which is what I am talking about. I say this because it seems you have rejected the theology of the ekklesia and therefore truth and error is merged into each other. The love of Christ is shed abroad in our hearts not within four walls. Can I emphasis I am not against assembling together to worship etc, what I am against is the system the idol has produced that actually binds and blinds people. When you accept this the truth is blurred. People have said to me that they love the church – well what do they actually love? There is confusion between the body which we love and the ‘church lifestyle’. Most people actually mean they love ‘going to church’, they love singing songs, they love fellowshipping etc etc People get the same enjoyment out of going to any ‘club’. But when we talk about loving the body of Christ this means so much more.
You state you have seen hundreds and thousands healed, physical dead raised, demons cast out.
Is this in New Zealand? or where? I have not heard about this, and I read widely.
[Ian Say's] We have seen many, many miracles in NZ (mostly in the south island) honestly too numerous to recall all over the last 10 years and also in Australia, Indonesia and the US. From blind eyes and deaf ears opening to creative miracles like skin growing over an infected wound (a hole) that doctors couldn’t explain and so much more.
Again I would repeat... theology or the church doesn't save souls only LOVE brings man to his knees in love and thence to love for Jesus and His sacrifice at Calvary.
[Ian Say's] I agree
AND I would repeat that the physical church building speaks to the hearts and minds when others don't.
[Ian Say's] I totally disagree
Finally I am sorry if I have damaged your conviction about what you are doing but it is not my desire
to damage anyone's faith or conviction.....they may be a faith growing and developing.
[Ian Say's] no the opposite in fact – the more I study and debate what God has shown me the more convicted I get. It is hard kicking against something you were part of for so many years. I have even had ‘friends’ call me a heretic, I have understandably lost many preaching engagements but the truth the Lord has shown me has to be shared. Since I started I have had much support come from people I didn’t even know. People who have been given the same sort of revelations. Pastors even agreeing and encouraging me. A whole movement re-publishing my articles etc etc.
As a former teacher I am always very conscious of my audience.....I think about how and where my audience are at, and how my message will be received and interpreted. So whatever you think, you will find me next Sunday and every other one God gives me , in the symbol of Jesus' love and where there are others of like mind.Numbers 6 verses 24 - 26 RUTH
[Ian Say's] May I just say that because of your training as a teacher you are seeing things through a Greek philosophical mindset which is how the western church has been built. So to see anything outside of these walls will take a complete mind-shift. This is not an attack on you or your profession just an observation of our culture. We have such a stronghold in our minds – the scripture says to cast it down.
You do realize that the biggest ingathering of souls at present is in China where the western church structure and mindset is NOT evident and they are in revival.
Good talking with you.
Blessings
Ian
In my own walk in Christ I too have seen may healed and set free from demons in Jesus name, and yes this is in New Zealand but not only New Zealand.
1 Tim 1:6 says "some, having strayed, have turned aside to idol talk". I'm not really concerned about the "greek origins of the word church". I'll keep sharing the gospel, going to church on Sunday where I will join God's people in worhip and teaching, and keep my focus on the harvest. Hope you don't brand me with "and now the insults".
I was most interested in your comment - Did Jesus say “go and plant churches”?
I am teach/coach on discipleship - more important then planting a church - go and make disciples, who make disciples (no "church" to be seen). From the process of discipleship when a lost person is helped through the scripture with the Holy Spirit teaching them ... they get saved, baptised and realise they should gather with other believers. i.e. church.
To MAKE anything worthwhile requires committed time ... no different in disciplining someone/or groups for better accountability. There needs to be a focus and commitment to a group of people - preferably a whole household.
Equipping to be effective, obedient disciple making disciples is lacking in "church" and in believers lives.
Churches/organisations become to involved in programs, outreach, long hours in worship ... then the people go home and never disciple anyone in their Christian life time.
A side note Jesus started disciplining the lost, this is where you start - disciple the lost.
Go make disciples ... pretty clear
Danny
Catalyst for gospel planting | discipleship in communities worldwide
I was amused to read about the 3 wisemen in this update as I too have tried to explain this to deaf ears. I told a sunday school class about it. One of the boys told his Bible study teacher at his christian school who verdantly argued that somewhere in the Bible it say there are three wise men even though she was unable to find it. She could not let go and conceive that what she thought she knew might be wrong.
When I came to know God many books were offered to me but God very specifically instructed and guided me as what to read and what not to. He was being careful what His child took in. It is so easy to be exposed to things that contain part truths but in fact lead us away from the truth.
I think that one of the big issues that so called Christian Religious leaders have is in the area of control.
They can allow in doctrine and knowledge sometimes based on so called organization church pressure although this is sometimes out of ignorance as this is how they were indoctrinated from the beginning.
Now we have a religious segment that thinks it needs to do things one way and in it's pursuit of this they miss the living voice of God because it doesn't line up with their doctrine (it does line up with His Word).
Then there are those who out of fear or insecurity try to control what is around them but not necessarily consciously. Maybe they are protecting there job security, their need for acceptance by those who attend the meetings (Like Saul did). Maybe they are serving their own self importance not wanting to lose their position and power over the people like the religious leaders in Jesus day.
If the Holy Spirit was to turn up at some so-called church meetings I think many leaders would be uncomfortable. Not only would they not be in control but now things would be happening in ways they would not be unaccustomed to. In looking at revival around the world, I think that there is ample evidence to show that they come to an end when man tries to exert his order and control on them.
Lets let go and get back to pure doctrine and being lead by the living voice of God and not a presumed mindset.
Let us assemble together for His glory and to edify the saints who make up the Body of Him, the Christ who is the head of the body, that we may serve Him better.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty....Ruth the way you see "church" is exactly what God is against, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, in other words we are the church if one wants to use that word. I have learnt so much more since coming out from amoung them then I did whilst I was a part of them Marie in Christ Jesus
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